This post was inspired after reading my blog-pal JayGee's ('Going Gently') own recent posting of some calves mourning the (permanent) absence of their mothers, though he does not, as I do here, cover the topic of vegetarianism:-
https://disasterfilm.blogspot.com/2023/04/cries-for-mom.html
One of my most vivid childhood memories is when I was maybe ten or so, out with two of my brothers plus one or two of their friends (I'd never had any friends of my own up to that age, and actually till later still). We happened to be walking by an abattoir at the same time as a herd of cattle was being ushered out of a truck and into the building. I can still recall the animal's faces mooing pitifully, they obviously (one assumes) being completely unaware of the grizzly fate which was immediately ahead of them. I see them even now. Feeling profound horror for the animals myself, I'd heard about abattoirs but had never thought any deeper about it. I think this experience may have been the seed which was, a very few years later, to turn me away from meat-eating for the rest of my life (other than some minor, isolated lapses).
The heading to this post is not something I've ever heard expressed so starkly as I do, but it's an attitude I regularly pick up when reading - or hearing - 'between the lines'. I may be mistaken but it could well be the way I would feel myself were I a meat-eater.
When I've found myself with a group in a restaurant (in the past, usually a works gathering) and it came to ordering one's meal, sometimes I'd be asked "How long have you been vegetarian?" or, a trifle more insidiously, "Why are you.......?" I can hear the curiosity, which is fair enough, but I also detect a burgeoning unspoken irritation on the speaker's part. When the question comes, which I dread, most especially in an eating establishment, I have to bluster about the subject, trying to avoid it directly yet closing it down, at least until in a less inappropriate location.
The fact is that my awareness of an animal having had its entire life sacrificed, probably in some horrific and painful way, in order to give me (plus a few others) a few minutes of pleasure is always hovering so real in my consciousness that I could never truly enjoy the experience of eating it. Added to which is a secondary reason, viz the realisation that eating animals is not, by and large, essential to my survival. (I'll expand on qualifications to this shortly).
So, how do I feel about those who, though being aware of my arguments, nevertheless choose to eat meat? (I include fish and seafood generally in the word). Well, I have to confess that I do wish there were more vegetarians in the world - or, better still, vegans. But as far as I know I have never attempted to 'convert' any carnivores out of their practice. That is for them to decide, though I'm pretty sure that many of the latter feel that we'd jump at any chance to preach our philosophy, and which, I've no doubt some do. However, I reckon such a ploy is largely counter-productive, only succeeding in getting the backs up of their target audience, a reaction which I can fully understand.
Our 'goody-goody' reputation, if it does exist, stems not just from a dislike at seeing animals suffer needlessly, but a general wish of wanting the survival of beings vulnerable to man's endless whim to end creatures' lives, sensate beings who often have such pathetically short natural existences anyway, protected and, indeed, respected.
Although I am emphatically not religious in any way, in early posts of mine I've mentioned my reading a Biblical passage most days (i.e. at least 95% of days) for now getting on for 60 years - as well as a daily passage from the Koran (in at least 5 different translations) - in addition to the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and also various Buddhist texts. What is striking about the Koran, as far as I can make out, is that it's totally devoid of expressing any affection for non-human beings. I think I'm right in saying that Islamic countries have next to nothing regarding the legal protection of animals. As such I would never want to visit such countries where, even a chance visit to a market would be bound to reveal a tethered sheep, goat etc waiting to be sold and used to slaughter for Halal meat, doubtlessly often inexpertly done with an entire family spectating the horrific act. Observing such a creature destined for such a hideous end would ruin the rest of my stay in that country - and would remain in my mind for still longer.
The Bible's New Testament, at least, mentions in Jesus' parables, the value of sheep, though that is really only as a commodity, a means of income for the shepherd/farmer. In the Old Book there are, it is true, a very few odd verses in Genesis and Proverbs which speak of the mistreatment of animals as being cruel, though such is not an oft-recurring theme in the volumes - and the Bible is particularly down on dogs.
India, because of its wide acceptance of Hinduism has strict laws against the mistreatment of cattle though, as far as I know, little else for other animals. Buddhism is, as far as I know, the sole major religion which recognises the value of all life - including plants - though not necessarily all on a parity. What I find most difficult to cope with is its doctrine of standing back and dispassionately observing life ('awareness') in detached manner without recognising an absolute necessity of intervening to alleviate suffering in another being where it's possible - or maybe I haven't fully comprehended the guidance/doctrine.
I'd ideally like to become a fully-observant vegan, and for at least a decade I've strived in that direction. I'd describe myself as more than 90% there now. (Milk now has to be exclusively non-dairy - for me preferably oat- or cashew-milk). However there are two or three areas where I haven't made it, a major one being that I just haven't been able to acclimatise myself to vegetarian cheese though I have tried and tried. I find there a bland same-ness, even between varieties which try to mimic dairy cheese 'flavours', almost unpalatable, though I'm sure they'll get better in time. All my life I've been quite an avid cheese fan though have now certainly well reduced my intake of dairy cheese. In my fridge at the moment is a portion of French Brie as well as a some Philadelphia cream cheese spread. Also I'm quite partial to Cheddar, Red Leicester, Double Gloucester as well as a number of Dutch and French cheeses, though without going totally overboard for any of them.
Additionally, for common-sense health reasons, especially for someone of my age, I take daily cod liver oil tablets to postpone the onset of getting painful joints (even though, regarding fishing, I cannot bear to see it taking place - to witness a fish being hauled up out of its natural habitat and suffocate in the air I just cannot watch). Also, acknowledging that being vegetarian means going without certain essential vitamins, I take daily B12 tablets to compensate for what plant-based foods cannot provide - as well as, incidentally (odourless) garlic tablets, an ingredient well beloved of many but which I myself cannot tolerate in food, including just its smell, though appreciating that it's especially beneficial towards a healthy heart. .
When I mention my exceptions to true veggie-ism, so many times the person I'm explaining to will gleefully pounce on my admissions as if it punches a hole in my definition of being veggie, even going so far as if it invalidates all aspirations to achieve my ideal and, on at least one occasion, calling me out as a hypocrite! But being not totally consistent is merely one aspect of human nature. If I say I don't have a great affection for Mozart's music, yet absolutely adore around a dozen of his piano concertos, does that make me a liar? Enough said?
Looking this post over it reads more heavily serious than I'd intended - as well as being longer - but we'll let it stand. I've said more on this subject than I've ever said to anyone up to now, though hoping it hasn't bored the pants off you. And I still don't know the answer to my question at top. Perhaps someone can respond with a suggestion..........?
Spot on. Well-written. Thank you for affirming. Vegetarian here for 20 years. I have to say... if one has evolved as a human to a certain degree - I think it impossible NOT to become a vegetarian. Ecologically, economically and humanely - it is the only choice that makes sense. I have a new name for meat eaters which I borrow from Hillary Clinton... the deplorables.
ReplyDeleteI agree that when one thinks deeply about veggie-ism the only conclusion I, for one, can come up with is that it's the sensible option. However, I suspect that an awful lot of meat-eaters don't WANT to think about it for fear they'll arrive at the very same conclusion, and it's a sacrifice too far to act on it, and so they transfer their discomfort on that point to a dislike of us veggies - displacement, in effect - leading to the accusation, usually unsaid, that we regard ourselves as 'better' people and want to preach our 'superiority, which is not easy to counter. No, we've considered the evidence and made our own decision, as everyone else must - or at least ought to.
DeleteI myself am not a vegetarian, but my consumption of fruits and vegetables far outweighs meat. When I do partake it's mostly either Fish seafood or poultry, but I probably do enjoy red meat once every 2 months, usually a filet mignon or a hamburger. I refuse to eat veal because I know what happens to baby calves. If I had to be a vegetarian I think I easily could except when it comes to cauliflower. I do enjoy it but every time I think of cauliflower your theater story comes to mind. So now I'm more conscious of it. And I don't know how anyone can eat meat Beyond the three basics of pork, poultry, or beef. I refuse to eat anything like rabbit, squirrel, dear, moose or any other variety. This three major food groups plus fish should be plenty. And it all nerves me to no end that in some Chinese and Thai and Vietnamese communities they eat cat and dog. I just couldn't. But I do like my fruits and vegetables.
ReplyDeleteI had to jump over some of the things you say, M.M. as being too graphic for my mind to dwell on, and which would turn me literally mad if I held them in my mind for some time. I knew such things existed but can never think deeply on them.
DeleteCaulies are my favourite veg, followed by sprouts. In fact I can't think of any veg I dislike, though there must be some.
I can't recall at all the 'theatre story' you mention regarding caulies. Are you really sure it was me?
All sea-food is a no-no for me, though it's not a great loss as I've never gone for fish in a big way, though I did like prawns. But don't rate stopping it all as a significant loss.
Yes I think I was thinking of the boiled cauliflower. At least I think it was you. I think the story has to do with the boiled cauliflower making stomach rumbling noises in the movie theater. Because I found the story rather amusing and gave me a good chuckle only because it's happened to me. And my apologies for giving you any visuals in your head from our topic at hand. It is unnerving which is why I try to cut meat out more and more when I can. But the door and craving comes back here and there.
DeleteGosh, you're perfectly correct. It WAS me - and all of FIFTY THREE years ago, when I went to see 'Zabriskie Point'! You remember more of my life than I do myself. And now, half a century later, I can see why some find it funnier than the deep embarrassment I felt at the time.
DeleteI'll be having cauli as part of my dinner in three hours. I wonder if my memory will nudge me this time . :-)
I am a lifetime vegetarian. I do however cook meat for family and friends. I think there are no innocent foods in that all food production entails the death of creatures or the inhibition of their natures. How many field mice are killed in any grain harvest? What is the cost of a loaf of bread? That said I think that ethically produced animal products are the best we can do whether we eat meat or not. These are just my thoughts and I wish you well.
ReplyDeleteI'm also conscious of the discovery that even plants feel pain when cut down, and I do give that too some thought. But what can one do, other than starving oneself to death? Even for me that's step too far.
DeleteIt won't happen for several generations yet, but I do envy the time when (some/all?) food is entirely laboratory produced without having to kill ANY live beings at all, animals or plants. If you can have all you need to stay healthy and strong by taking a daily tablet or two, that would be fine with me, though I daresay there'd be an ENORMOUS majority not agreeing.
Wishing you well too, Anon. Thanks for dropping by.
You're above comment has me thinking and wishing if only that could be like that now. "won't happen for several generations yet, but I do envy the time when (some/all?) food is entirely laboratory produced without having to kill ANY live beings at all, animals or plants" I wonder if that would ever come? It's one reason why I find humans so damn disgusting, as it hardens my heart more and more for humans as they just tear up more land and habitats, killing and wiping out everything in their path. We have so many animals magnificent ones too like whales rhinos hippos elephants that are on the verge of extension because of wiped out habitats. And I can't say I understand it especially considering all the empty properties that sit vacant. Why can't they be rehabbed in the new places? It broke my heart when I read 2 months ago that only two white rhinos are living, two females, and one passed away. If we keep tearing up habitat where are these animals to go? Which is why I loved the pandemic. One reason was that forced everybody in their homes, everywhere was like a ghost town and nature and animals quickly began taking back the Earth. It was such a lovely sight to see and very short lived.
ReplyDeleteWe are on the precise same page here, M.M. For some years now I've been getting so regularly depressed and riled up at seeing items on the News (and I'm a news-junkie so I watch the news several different channels every day) relating to animals' suffering that I have to switch over - or even switch off - and only return after some minutes when I feel the item will have finished. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone can fail to be moved to the extent that you and I are.
ReplyDeleteBut more generally, and (I think) like you too, that during the life of today's younger generations - though not in my own - ALL life is on the road to be ended within a few decades, not through nuclear weapons but much more likely, through climate change which is even now, I fear, too late to recover from its likely inevitable path. And even if we with our puny selves didn't have enough clout to make any influence, it was OUR generation which did it. It couldn't be sadder!
Yikes! What a topic! You took it on well. Good for you! I am going with Mother's advice not to criticize another person's diet.
ReplyDeleteYour mum's advice is sound, though I think there's a problem line between criticising and making others aware. Of course all meat eaters know full well what they are doing so, though I suspect (admittedly without any evidence) that some (many?) of them don't want to think deeply about it because of the inconvenience and discomfort it could cause. Nevertheless, I shall continue to refrain from criticising others.
DeleteThird generation veggie here...grandma was a fan of GBS... Leaning a little towards vegan eating in the milk department (oat or soy please..and black coffee!) .
ReplyDeleteI don't criticise other peoples' choice of food...but it is strange that others find fault with mine....and some of the most vehement criticism comes from militant vegans. Not the best way to persuade others to follow their way of eating!
Cheese, yes cheese... Shropshire Blue for me!!
Yes, I too have discovered that outright criticism of me for not being absolutely 100% vegan has come from vegans themselves. Everyone has to navigate one's own choices, and it's no easy matter when health is a major factor, particularly for those of us are either of advanced age, or getting there.
DeleteI've tried soya milk, and others several times but don't care for it, though find oat (as you use) and cashew are ideal - and as close to the taste of dairy milk as I could wish for. As I say above, it's on cheese where I fall below the desired level, though still gradually weaning myself off the dairy variety. However, while I'm still there I must search out the Shropshire Blue which I've never heard of till now.
Thanks for your visit, Gz. Btw: At first I was foxed by your 'GBS' ref, then the penny eventually dropped. Well, after all, my memory doesn't quite go as far back to Methusalah!
I have been vegetarian for ~20 years, vegan for ~5. I agree that some of the "worst" people are vegans monitoring what other vegans eat. I admit, though, I have become more judgmental of meat eaters (but don't share my thoughts when eating out w/someone!) as I learn more about the meat/dairy industries. Or people who go on and on about animal abuse, or the environment, but remain addicted to their hamburgers, etc. I do my best; it is definitely a learning experience. So many things have animal byproducts in them, and we don't even realize it. Cheese/milk was easy enough for me to give up after watching films of dairy farms, etc. I always think that the dairy industry must have the best PR department. A very interesting post, Ray! I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on a topic that is very important to me.
ReplyDeleteIt pleases me no end to read that you too are an avid veggie/vegan, Elle. If I knew it before I'd forgotten.
DeleteMy biggest guilt presently is my dedication to dairy cheese, even though I reduced my intake of it substantially. Suppose watching one or some of the horror films on dairy farming that you mention would take me completely in the direction I aspire to, but I know it would give me nightmares - and anyway, if I dwelt on the subject my imagination would quite easily do the necessary works. I envy your managing to cope with dairy-free cheese. It must be some years since I earnestly attempted a full conversion, perhaps they've improved since then. There were certainly signs of their moving to introduce new 'flavours'. I'll give it another shot.
I'm aware of some of the extent of animal by-products in food and goods where you wouldn't expect to find them but, frankly, rather close my mind to it (not without regret). One can only do so much without the whole thing taking over one's life to your own detriment. But I honestly think that surely within a couple of centuries at most (if civilisation survives that long - which is one HUGE 'if'!), hardly anyone on earth will be using animals as food, to dress with, to use for work........Anyway that's what I want to believe.
I was cagey about writing the above post as it's rather like walking on egg-shells. You never know what the reactions may be, though luckily there hasn't been a single negative response as you can see.
Thanks very much for your thoughts, Elle. I'm only surprised that the subject hasn't come up on the blogs of others, or at least within my own small circle of blog-pals.
My next post shouldn't be long - it's the annual jamboree and camp-fest of the Eurovision Song Contest in a few days time, this year coming from Liverpool, with the U.K. entry being a true rarity - a song which I actually liked the one and only time so far that I've heard it. Can hardly wait!